Discussion Forum

It also makes very little sense to give birth to a child only to toss the child over to someone else to care for him/her. We're human beings trying to bring up another human being; not manufacturing companies trying to produce items.

When we were growing up, at least one of our parents would be able to stay home and teach/nurture the child. In the current climate it is impossible to have just one working partner while the other stays home. We can beat our chests repeatedly about how we should "manage costs" and "live within our means" and all that, but ultimately every parent only wants the best for the child, and providing the child with a sub-standard life due to lack of money is simply unacceptable for most parents. Tuition, food, school activities, even transportation to send the child to school or the clinic all cost money most middle-income people find difficult to produce.

Historically, population growth is mostly fuelled by the middle-income group (i.e. the sandwiched class), who are now forced to work long hours, pay more taxes and an ever increasing utility bill and grocery bill, deal with life-draining transportation issues and reach home with only an empty shell left. We eat, we work, we sleep, period. If the population issue is to be looked at seriously, the policy-makers would have to look at it from the point of view of what sacriface we are willing to make - do we want continued productivity fuelled by aliens whom we will try to assimilate, largely unsuccessfully, and risk breeding Singaporeans out of Singapore? Or are we willing to bend a little to ensure the continuity of Singapore as a nation and Singaporeans as a people?

that's so true

Agree. To continue the current social system is to perpetuate a generation of minions, not children. We reproduce, but leave it to the state (child-care, schools, after-school care, PA, etc) to nuture for us. Are they our children or the state/PAP's? We have to think carefully.

Fat MaMa

Above reflects my point of view too.
I hope it is considered reasonable/acceptable to feel tired after working (whole-heartedly) for >8h..
or should I reflect on the definition of "sub-standard life"..

government, can singapore prosper base on her own..acknowledge that our forefathers were also migrants..but we have identity now, we are growing as one people..already have 3rd-4th generation of true breed singaporeans. Not implying that we totally eliminate foreign talents, but at least when I take MRT, can I be surrounded by singaporeans..?

Can t agree more. Think about it, we may get say few thousand here and there or tax breaks as incentives to bear more kids, but ultimately these few thousands here and there pale in comparison to the rising cost of living in property, food, hospital bills, cars, etc.

Parents want what is best for their kids and if they can t even afford to take care of themselves properly, what more have children? We have to remember the standards that more educated Singaporeans subscribe to these days have changed. Parents don t just leave their kids to play around and hope that they will turn up well like in the past. Or simply just have children first than think about their future later. Parent s no longer demand so so standards when it comes to bringing up their children.

If you look at the trend for parents these days, it is so common for kids since young to be sent to private kindergartens, enrichment classes, tution and so on. All these need money. Throw in the need to get a decent sized home if you re intending to have children (lets not talk about even bigger spaces if you intend to have 3 children or more), which increases the mortgage burden for parents, cars to fetch children and grandparents around and you can see why parents think twice before thinking about bearing more children.

Take housing alone, housing has gone up at least 10% p.a for the last 2 years. On a $500,000 property we re looking at increases of $50k per year. On a $1 mil property $100k per year. Prices for a new bread and butter car have increased from $50k 2 years ago to about $00k today. An average uni grad earning $3k a month, would take in $36k a year. Throw in 3 months bonus thats $45k per year. But how much have wages increased on average? At 5% a year we re looking at increases of about $2,250 per year. So the increases in wages pale in comparison in increases on prices of big ticket items.

Real inflation looks ok but absolute inflation in Singapore has been detrimental socially. And property inflation seeps into every part of the economy. Increasing residential prices lead to increasing commercial prices to industrial prices. Rent demands increase as a result of the larger mortgage, and tenants raise prices of goods to offset increasing rentals.

So think about it a married couple, before even bearing children, have to take on such huge burdens when they first get their matrimonial home, is it any wonder than that they have to think twice about having children? The BTOs are a great idea but unfortunately we ve been severely underestimating demand so BTOs will take some time to com onstream. Even than like I ve said Singporeans aspirations have changed. There re many couples these days who don t even want to start with a BTO. So we have to arrest the rising inflation in our economy.

Just to add on, BTO doesn t work for alot of Singaporeans nowadays because people are getting married later. Imagine you get married 28 and you ve to wait 5 years before you get your place than have children. So what happens is this group of people will usually go direct to market and be sujected to market pricing. Imagine if after you get married you ve a $400k mortgage or a $1 mil mortgage hanging over your head, would you think twice about having children? You may not but you will certainly think twice about having a second or third kid, throwing all other costs in.

Thats why I ve earlier mentioned in my comments, at the current trajectory we re going, Singapore will be a wonderful place to live in 10-20 years time, but only for millionaires.

Who will have the courage to have children if they themselves have such poor quality of life?

I totally agree regarding the high cost of living. Though the government had subsidised child care, the cost is still very high considering from an average income household.

Ideally, we have to:

You are right on.

1. This is a belated White Paper of no use for us nor for them to convince/threathen us. We have already been betrayed by them and fuming.

2 After admitting so many over the last 15 years, it is proven that immigration is not going to imrpove our TFR. If it is for economic reasons, then, is  the PAP government going to take the responsibility of shouldering the burden when this large bulge of young migrants age? With their current attitudes towards social spending, will they? If not, who would? Is the PAP going to recycle their schemes that is currently on us on them too?  Or the PAP forsee that it won't be their business by that time? All the talks about population planning and our future, so whose future are they planning? Ours, theirs, or the migrants?
Singaporeans know the answer better.


Fat MaMa 

Arent our government singaporeans too..........?

The government machinery is made up of Singaporeans and PRs. The party that formed the government of the day is also Singaporean. Our political leaders, too, are Singaporeans. Unfortunately, they seem to be part of us only around election time. Other than that it has always been 'us and them' in the well-known political divide. Have you heard of any PM endearing Singaporeans as if he is part of us either here or overseas? Have any of them given Singaporeans credit for what we are today? Have our history books been about a country and it's people? Or just about a country and it's leaders? This divide is getting wider and more dangerous. Glad that you ask.

For now.  In the future, it depends on who you consider as Singaporean?  A Chinese, Malay, Indians? or the others....

I don t disagree with having foreigners. I think having the right foreigners contribute to our economy, brings diversity and makes the country more vibrant.

What is wrong is that over the last couple of years we were almost soley depending on foreign influx to bump up the population figures. There must be a concurrent strategy to encourage Singaporeans to give birth, and like I ve mentioned before, creating the right environment and arresting the rising cost of living are 2 very important aspects.

I ve noticed that alot of friends, colleagues tend to give birth some time after they purchase their house, so obviously being able to access housing at the correct prices play a huge part. And if you look at the housing policy in the past, it was quite a mess. Undersupply of flats which led to oversubcription at every balloting exercise. Married couples couldn t even get a place to stay, let alone have babies. Add to that the fact that we ve so far been behind the curve when it comes to policing the rising property market, and you can see why its becoming quite a problem.

No point feeling betrayed. You can either get out of the country and find somewhere better, or contribute productively to our beloved country and make sure it doesn t get run aground by the people sailing it.

Sensible suggestions. Much better than to hear people lamenting all the time

Greedy child care centres! Why charge so much money!

1) scrap NS, covert to professional SAF. -> who are the ppl going to join professional SAF? How much is SAF going to pay them? Is Singapore going to have a strong force in terms of war?
2) scrap PSLE n O level -> How to go Diploma and A level when don't even go through those 2 examination?
3) scrap GST -> agree, so no one will join SAF, civil servant.
4) scrap COE -> good idea, on the road will have alot of cars and our air pollution go go up.
5) enforce strict working hours -> Company operation comes first.
6) Sell flat at construction cost -> housing price go down, resell price go down.
7) Free education for Singaporeans -> where to get the money when GST is scrap, COE is scrap? And how do we know that person can study if PSLE n O level is scrap?
8) Stop accepting foreign talents -> Strong agree.

You only make 2 sensible feedback. the rest are all nosenses.

Aiyah! Nonsense also good. Imagine, after manhandling our population policies over the last 45 years, now they are asking "what do you think?". Lagi nonsense right? Do you seriously think they are interested in feedback? Gosh!

Yah loh, they dun really read the feedback. REACH only for show only. As long as Singapore dun become those countries in Europe can liao.

I agree that PSLE and 'O' Levels should not be scrapped. But I do think that the education system needs massive change. I think that having your ability as a student solely decided through only one exam is total *****. Many students can easily memorize content just for that one period of time (esp foreign students who are trained to do so). In the end students gain little or no knowledge.

Having a maid is another burden than solving household problem... it is like having another child. we have to take care of them in medical even if she itchy backside having boyfriend getting herself pregnant, we have to bear the consequences for her. child care is too expensive and we dun know if our child is at good hands. the child need the love not the people just to take care of them... so wat is the solution to all this?
subsidise most of the things for our fellow singaporeans so we can have the mother to take care of the children. or give monthly allowance to full time housewives who are are not working at all...

Then tax need to rise?

adding on from above:
pro-family culture  > balance the space allocated for places like ion/MBS with spacious heartland + family friendly places like city square mall ("parking lots" for strollers, wide corridors for slow moving elderly etc), parks (applaud hort park; garden by the bay, but could we have more garden/park-activities eg music in the park, carnivals etc..)
mindset shift > the basic motivation for procreation; wider definition for "best quality" life, being less materialistic; would singapore degrade if we are no long kiasu..(?)
*we probably won't want to marginalize singles too..

Recently I feedback to HDB on one of their car park managed by private operator regarding to road safety and improvement of loading/ unloading lot to facilitate childcare going kids. This is a very popular car park with a wet market, multiple tuition centers and childcare center. The heavy vehicle parking lots are located near to lift lobby thus parents like park there. As the result parking fine is prompt too! (Parents normally dashing through the road with kids and their school bags)

HDB replied with standard template “nothing they can do”.

When will we start creating a pro-family culture?

Wow, 5 room flat? My parents only brought me and my sibling up in a 4 room flat.

"give priority of selling bigger units (3-4 bedders) of private or public housing to families with more children"

you've brought up a very valid point.

in no way am i belittling the very valid points brought out by everyone else in the forum.

Super-likes!

CC that COST me $650 a month, not PAY me!

I totally agreed the above.

I would love to have a 2nd child too but there are many stuff to be considered before going forward.
Currently, my child is 2 yrs old and attending child-care. after subsidy, we still have to pay $500 for
full day child care. Though using the Baby Bonus (MCYS), it will deduct the amount every month.

Government gave us $6000 (dollar to dollar) but with the child care fees at $500 monthly, it will only
last us for 2 years. in the end, we have to pay the rest of the school fees by ourselves. With that kind
of high children expenses, how can we afford a 2nd child and one parent not working?

Expenses for helpers increased, school fees for child care at extreme, medical fees are way too expensive and HDB flats cost increased but square area decreased! if we have 2 children, a boy & a girl, they will gradually need to have their own rooms when they gets older, given the size of HDB these days (even 5 rooms), we can't even put a study table after putting a bed and cupboard in the room. how can
we provide good learning environement for our child if our space are limited. Why can't Government build
bigger HDBs for locals since we have to pay such high price? Now we are paying to live in a pigeon hole!
Given the current situation and if i have 3 children, in time to come, parents may have to turn the living room into their bedroom in the night instead!

Paternity leave is another issue. why are Father's not given a longer leave even for their first child? Father also plays an important role in the child's life and they should not be deprived for spending more time with their new borns. As for mothers, the most important stage of child's development is when they are around 4-6 months and by that time, we have to return to work or else you will likely be on the chopping board. Heard that in other country like Japan or Canada, mothers are given 1 year of paid maternity instead of our current 4 months. Employers should also prehaps give the mothers an option to work from home if there is no one taking care of the child.

Medical fees for pregnant mothers are very expensive. Each time of visit will cost about $120 and above for even KK Hospital. Delivery package will be around $4K (though through medisave) but cash of around $2k is necessary for normal delivery.  

Medical fees for children is really too expensive. simple medication and consultation will cost you at least $70 per visit. I heard that some companies in SIN provides full claim for children too. We noticed that many expes are given full claim for both employees and family. Why locals are not given that kind of beneifts. Government should also support company welfare for the local employees so that they have lesser worries on their children's medication expenses.

Another issue... children of this generation cannot communicate with their grand-parents being their 1st language is English and the so-called 'Mother Tongue' is Mandarin. There are many grandparents still prefers to speak to their grandchildren in their comfortable dialects but failed. Government should not cut dialects totally as that is supposed to be our roots. Since when Mandarin is our Mother Tongue? I thought Mother Tongue should be the language that your Mum used to communicate with you? We should never forget our roots. many children only speaks English or Mandarin and that makes it difficult for the grandparents to communicate... and to take care of the child. Why should we get the elderly to learn Mandarin at such old age and why not the younger generation learning their dialect instead? Can't communicate thats where Child Care services comes in! What if the child can communicate with grandparents in their language, won't it be a breeze for both the care taker and the parents?

Living standard in Singapore is getting higher and that's perhaps the real reason behind low birth rates.